• Pauline Le Pape’s Website
• Pauline Le Pape’s Instagram
• École Estienne
• Ramit Sethi on Chase Jarvis Live
• Thinking With Type
• Concept-driven Design and Art Direction With Charlotte Heal (The Creative Voyage Podcast E02)
• Mindfulness Meditation
• Headspace App

• Introduction [00:00]
• Episode Introduction [00:50]
• Advice for Young Designers [02:18]
• Work Routines and Habits of a Creative Professional [10:21]
• Making a Living As a Designer [20:15]
• Self-Development As a Creative Professional and Freelancer [28:35]
• Short Episode Break – Support the Podcast [33:18]
• Challenges on Pauline’s Professional Journey [34:01]
• Contemporary Approach to Typography and Type Design [50:26]
• What is Art Direction [01:00:33]
• How to Be a Better Creative Professional [01:03:26]
• Episode Outro [01:08:23]

Pauline: Keep on reflecting on your practice and your whole life, basically, that you never think like, “Oh, okay. This is me. This is what I’m doing. This is who I am.”

This is the Creative Voyage Podcast, a long form interview show with the mission to help creative professionals to level up. I’m your host Mario Depicolzuane. I’m a creative professional myself active in the fields of graphic design, art direction, and creative consulting. In this podcast, I present in depth interviews with some of the world’s most inspiring creative professionals revealing the stories that shape their lives and careers, plus actionable strategies to help you take your mindset and skills to the next level. I invite you to join me on this journey.

Mario: In this episode, I talk to a type designer and art director.

Pauline: I’m Pauline Le Pape. I’m a French type designer and art director. I’m currently based in Amsterdam, but I grew up and studied mostly in France.

Mario: Pauline Le Pape is a type designer and art director that graduated in 2016 with an MA in type design from École Estienne in Paris. After her studies, her journey took her to Amsterdam where she is currently based. Over the years, she developed a range of meticulous typefaces and type-based identities and worked on other projects in various mediums and formats with a focus on typography. Some of her recent work includes a custom typeface for Nike, type design and identity for Stadscuratorium Amsterdam and an expansion of her ever-evolving type family Till. Her work has been featured in It’s Nice That, Actual Source’s Shoplifters 8: New Type Design, and the Japanese design magazine Quotation, to name a few.

In this episode, we’re going to listen to the highlights of the conversation I have with Pauline in July 2020. We cover topics such as Pauline’s advice to young professionals, the importance of meditation and walks in her work routines, managing finances, including critical mindsets and budget negotiation tips, typography and type design, challenges she’s experiencing at the moment and much more.

I’m frequently interested to hear about the creative’s transition from a student to a professional. There can be a singular inflection point in someone’s development, but more often than not, it’s a long gradual process of trying, making mistakes, learning and persevering. Almost immediately after graduating, Pauline dived head first into the creative market and started working independently as a freelance designer. I found it fascinating, so I began our conversation asking her about that point in her journey, the early lessons she learned at the time and advice she would give to young professionals who are now starting.

Pauline: The weird thing is that I didn’t really feel like applying to design job, like having a position in the company, or whatever. I think I immediately started to feel like, this is at least what I want to experiment with. I wasn’t sure that I would be good at every assignment I would work on, but I was immediately more interested in trying. I think that was, yeah, back then my mindset, that I really wanted to try. I knew that yeah, maybe I will face difficulties and then understand that it was not the way to go. 

Pauline: I think it turned quite well, because at the end, I’m still doing it and I still love it the way I do it. Yeah, I think I just decided basically, I want to almost pretend that I can do everything before to actually know how to do it. That for me, I knew it would be – only way to actually learn, because I realized quite early that what you learn at school is quite limited in a way. That is great and you get some skills and some tools, but I knew that reality would be so much different and harder and that I will miss out on a lot anyway. Yeah, I just decided that I should try before anything, which was retrospectively quite, I don’t know, crazy, or maybe I know if it was brave or crazy, but yeah, I don’t even see myself like this. I think I’m pretty anxious and I wouldn’t bet on myself to take this decision, but I just did it by intuition.

Mario: Yeah, I think that’s very interesting and I think you put it well now that that was my next question, because it is – You said like, “Oh, I was aware that things are going to be different, things are going to be difficult.” Then, I think in most cases, people would base on those insights, they would be like, “Okay. Maybe I should just work somewhere for at least a few years, get some experience, or some money in the bank, or whatever.” You dived in, which is I think it is brave. 

Pauline: Yeah. Now I realize it is a bit. Back then, I don’t know. I don’t know what happened in my head. Yeah, especially, I mean, yeah, there was one thing maybe, because I grew up in a working-class family, we never had money. I wasn’t really scared of not having a lot of money. Maybe it did help. I think it did help free myself from this idea. I totally respect, especially my colleague that I decided to take a job. I totally understand why. I think if I did that, maybe then I would save a bit of anxiety, if I had for instance, a more financial stable situation. Yeah, it just happened like this.

Mario: Yeah. Now looking back in hindsight, if you could go back to that beginning, or when you decided to do that and started doing it, if there’s any piece of advice you could give yourself at that time, is there anything you would send a message to the past, to yourself?

Pauline: Yeah. I think I would advise me to protect myself a little bit more. I think I was willing to give a lot from me, a lot of my time, energy, but also, yeah, sometimes I should have just, I don’t know, yeah, have more boundaries maybe. Something that I really started to build up through the time that I didn’t have at all at the beginning, I think that I would do that. Be careful.

Mario: When you say boundaries, what do you mean? Protecting from what things?

Pauline: Yeah. For instance, I’m thinking now about every moment, I let, I don’t know, maybe some client, or yeah, client basically invading my private space, this thing. I would tell myself, “Okay, you have the right to actually have weekends. You have the right to don’t answer during the evening, or you have the right to have holidays, all this thing.” Very simple actually, but simple rules that you just don’t let people overpass them.

Mario: Yeah. Exactly. I guess, was it similar with also maybe the amount of time you were giving to people, or how contracts were structured, or the budgets, or similar things?

Pauline: Yeah. I think it’s something that I mean, obviously as most of people, you don’t really learn in school the whole business part of it. Especially, yeah, making sure that the project is not going to take six months when you thought it will be a matter of two weeks, because of course then yeah, you accept to be paid a certain amount of money. If you can’t sustain yourself, just because you’re busy for six months with this project and you thought it would be just two weeks, then it’s a big problem. I think that’s something very simple, but being able to write contracts, to agree on this stuff with clients, I wish I knew it better and I knew it earlier.

Mario: Are there any specific resources, which helped you with that, any books, or courses, or websites? Or how did you learn those things now?

Pauline: Yeah. I think it happened quite organically, I would say. It’s not really a book, or courses. I actually, last year followed small business courses for creative that helped a lot, even though there was a lot of things that I technically knew, but in a way, hearing someone telling you that you really deserve to have clear contract and to protect yourself to have slack time, this kind of thing, help, that is not just you deciding this, but that someone is saying to you, this is absolutely normal.

Pauline: It was also just a matter of, yeah, failing a lot and repeating mistakes and then thinking, okay, this specific thing never again. Sometimes it still happens, but at least you start to have your lists of red flags.

Mario: Let’s follow this thread. Now we talked about, let’s say an advice you would give to yourself, maybe at the time following that idea. There’s so many people graduating, entering design industry currently. You are certainly a couple of years ahead of those people and you’re doing really interesting work. I’m curious, what advice would you give to those young professionals who are now entering into type design, graphic design?

Pauline: I think it’s well, it could be a bit surprising. I would probably advise to slow down in general to take the time. I know sometimes, it doesn’t seem so possible to take the time for very technical reason that everyone has to face. Yeah, you have to pay your rent, so taking your time, fine, but you still have to, yeah, sustain yourself. It doesn’t mean taking a big time. It means taking good time to always check on yourself, check on is what I’m doing in-line with my values? How do I want to evolve? Why do I do what I do? Is it because I heard it from my schoolmate, or my teacher or my parents, or what I think the society is expecting from me?

Pauline: All these things that you basically, that everyone has to deal with. I would strongly advise to really take a step back and trying to look at yourself from a different perspective and do it actually regularly. I also do it all the time, to really check am I in the right place? Do I still like it? How can I improve this and this or that? I think that’s very important.

Many of my colleagues and friends are freelancers and I’ve been working as one for years, so I’m aware that the work routines of creatives vary significantly, which I find exciting and inspiring. I was curious to hear what makes Pauline’s workdays, how she manages her time and if there are any specific habits, or practices which she finds indispensable.

Pauline: I think it really depends on either what project I’m working on, or if I’m actually really busy with project, or just – there is also weeks where I’m just working on typefaces, because that’s – just the moment I can do it is when I’m not working on assignments and it’s already quite rare, so I’m trying to really focus on this when I can. I think, what is important for me is to don’t have a too stiff routine, especially when it comes to where I’m working. I like to change location, so I’m renting a studio, which is probably the best place to really focus on one task and to really, yeah, get the work done. Sometimes I also need to, I don’t know, do something else.

Pauline: For instance, walking is super important for me. Every day, I have to walk at some point. It’s always the moment I – it’s just unlock something and it’s always a moment I understand exactly what I want to do in a project. Yeah, this is super important for me. I need to do quite a lot of meditation as well and it’s the same process. Somehow it’s just, keep my mind fresh, or even refresh my mind. Yeah, and it’s not properly work, you would say. I really need to do that. I think it’s all those tools that I think I developed through the years that make me seem clearer, basically.

Mario: Let’s say in a day, you said oh, you need to go for a walk, you need to meditate. Of course, you need to work. How is that structure? You said you need to meditate a lot as well. I’m very curious, what does that mean?

Pauline: Yeah. For me, what works the best, yeah, let’s try to describe most of my days. It can be sometimes different, but most of my day I wake up quite early. I really take a long time to, I don’t know, just prepare myself for the day, meditate, then eat something, drink coffee. It takes a long, long, long time.

Pauline: Even when I was a student, I used to wake up at 5 or something, just to make sure I really have the time to do some things before I immediately start. Then usually, I’m ready to actually do the all the mails, all the administration, all the stuff that will be a burden somehow for me if I don’t do it in the morning.

Pauline: I need to get rid of this, because it’s always something that stay on my mind back there if I don’t do it immediately. I just get rid of this. Basically, that’s how I see it. Usually, during the afternoon, I can start to be creative properly. 

Mario: Okay. Then do you take breaks, or do you have a lunch break, or do you go for a walk in the middle of a day, or how do you integrate those different practices?

Pauline: Lunch is super important for me. I mean, maybe it’s also – It’s probably because of French culture, which is totally different than Dutch culture is more or less. You just need to grab a sandwich, or something. It’s just like having fuel for your body. For me, it’s more it’s way more than this is very important. I take also, yeah, a good time away from my computer for sure to eat. I really hate to mix the stuff.

Pauline: Also, it’s the same process of rebooting yourself, the same as what I was saying about the work is the same process that you refresh your mind. That’s something I’m really trying to always do. I think, usually, I will be super-efficient, like super, super focused for two or three hours and then I need to take a break. Then I can come back and then I can be – If I’m trying to force too much, if I’m trying to work too many hours in a row not taking a break, because I’m going to feel guilty about it, it just doesn’t work. I really need to also realize that I’m almost forced myself to do it, even when I’m feeling guilty about it. 

Mario: Then you said you do more of creative work in the afternoon. Then how long are your days usually? Does it go into evening, or not? How do you –

Pauline: That’s also is something that I’m trying to structure a lot. I’m trying to basically, the day will start around 9 and stop around 6 or something. I’m trying to keep those very boring 9 to well, not 5, but 6 hours, just because I need this structure in a way, just because yeah, it’s the same as what I was talking about earlier that you need to create your own boundaries. I feel if I’m starting to answer mail, or expect mails, or expect even ideas to come to my mind in the evening, then I never really rest. That’s just not good for my brain. Of course, I’m also flexible and sometimes I’m feeling super energized. Then I will work a bit more late, or something. I tend to parent myself, if it makes sense. 

Mario: Yeah, it does make sense. Then, can you talk a bit about your studio and your workspace? Are you by yourself? Or how does it look? Is there something important within your working space that makes your work easier or better?

Pauline: I just got a new studio space. I just been there once, because – also, because of quarantine. I just stayed way more at home. I think, next week I will start to go a bit more often. It’s a sharing space, so it’s not just me. I really like it. Everyone has his own assignment and everyone is also busy with multiple different things. One is there every day, for instance. I really that flexibility that is it’s not – so you don’t feel like stagnant proper office life. Yeah, everyone has multiple practice.

Pauline: I know, some people are for instance, teaching. I think we will be five. Yeah, still in discussion, six or five people. Most of them, yeah, they have jobs, like teacher, or I’m now being a PhD researcher, this kind of thing, which is super interesting. That’s quite important for me to be also in contact with people that are doing something different than me, so I can also learn from those people.

Pauline: For the rest, I’m not super difficult, I would say for the space itself, as long as it’s tidy. I’m super tidy myself, so I’m not going to spread. I don’t need a lot of space, basically. 

Mario: When it comes to the work itself, how much do you work alone? How much do you collaborate with people? How is that distributed?

Pauline: I’ve collaborated a lot, actually. I think I’m quite used to it and I really like it. I think I need a balance between the two. On one hand, I’m really collaborating and it also means of course, a lot of compromises, but I like it and it’s also really – in general, it just helps for me to reflect on your own practice. If I do too much of work alone, then I realize when I’m really on my comfort zone, on my bubble. I think I really need to force myself also to not stay too long there. Even if I could only work on my assignment, I think I will definitely work with other people anyway. I will ask friends, or a collaborator to join me, because I really need that, I feel.

Mario: Could you talk a bit about types of assignments you have? Because your bio states that you’re a type designer, an art director and that’s a very broad term. Both can be very broad. I’m curious, like what assignments you have. Is it how much is type design, versus maybe graphic design, versus direction? How is that placed in into a practical schedule?

Pauline: In terms of field, first of all, I think I can tell now that I’ve been working mostly in the cultural fields. I used to work a lot for museum for instance, especially in the Netherlands. Actually, I started to do more let’s say, graphic design, so books, or exhibition design, poster design, I don’t know, animation. Different stuff that were yeah, more as I said, properly graphic design. 

Pauline: Now, it tends to be more and more type design, which was exactly what I wanted, even if it’s through – often, I’m being asked to also give out direction and then through this lens, I’m going to create a lettering, or a typeface, or whatever. 

Pauline: Yeah, it’s really taking the right direction for me for this reason. It’s something that I really want to explore more. I don’t want to only – I was thinking, maybe at some point, I want to only do typefaces and have a type foundry, but I don’t think that’s what I want right now. It could totally change in the future, but I really like the challenge of having a discussion with someone that is looking for something and you helped them to basically, throw the narratives around it.

Pauline: The whole storytelling is very important for me. When you’re working on your own typeface, there is a storytelling, but it’s only yours. This is a relief sometimes, but it’s not something I only want to do. I think I need a balance between those two things.

One of the critical sources of struggle for freelancers can be making enough money to earn yourself a living. Especially as a young professional, it can be daunting to navigate the universe of fees, competitors, value and healthy business boundaries. Here, I talked with Pauline about how she manages that, including valuing your work, differentiating your sources of income and how to be better at negotiation. 

Pauline: At the studio, we used to have interns for instance. That’s something that they really want to know. It’s something that creative tend to hide for some reason, not for bad reason sometimes, but yeah, I think we should all be more transparent about it. I’m also really trying to be transparent with the people I’m working with, this specific topic, they need to understand that my work has a value and that my time is also limited. It’s still a struggle sometimes, but it’s getting better for the following reason. I have more people I’m regularly working with. It helps, because there are people that are coming back and then there is a trust build. 

Pauline: It’s becoming better for this reason. It’s always scary, because you have to fully trust those people on coming back to you and be confident in knowing that there will be always new projects, people that want to work with you. That’s scary. To be honest, I think I’m more and more thinking about maybe at some point, teaching. One of the reason is obviously, that it could give me a steady income, even if it’s one day per week or something.

Pauline: It’s obviously not the only reason. It’s also, because I think it’s super interesting to share and it helps you again, to reflect on your practice to be close with young people. For multiple reasons, I would love to do that, but yeah, I’m not doing it yet. What can I say? I think I’m also trying on a very practical terms also, I’m really trying to claim for what I think I really deserve. 

Pauline: I think at the beginning, I was just also under-charging so much, it was ridiculous. I mean, sometimes I’m just thinking, it was insane. I was not being able to sustain myself at all, because of yeah, it was my fault. I was just not asking for enough.

Mario: Yeah, exactly. 

Pauline: It’s also because you have no idea. At the beginning, even 500 euro for a whole project, it almost sounds like a lot. You’re like, “Oh, wow. Well, it’s already like, add then I can pay my rent.” It doesn’t work like this. At the end, you also realize that you are always on the very same line, always working on eggs and you always come to a point where it’s also giving you so much anxiety to be in this position.

Pauline: Now it’s something I’m really trying to fix by yeah, being for instance, open for negotiation. I think before, I would also always under-charge, because I was afraid to be confronted to someone telling me, “No, that’s too much.” Now, I accepted it and I know that actually, if someone doesn’t tell you it’s too much, it’s probably because they could have give you way more.

Mario: Yeah. That’s usually the case when you send a proposal in and they just say yes. You’re like, “Uh.” The budget was too low. When there’s some pushback and you manage to negotiate it, then you know you’re on that nice edge.

Pauline: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That at least is closer to also what they can offer, what they expect. I think it’s also even at the end, building a better relationship between the client and you, because in a way, they know that you know what you’re doing. It’s also as stupid as I know when you’re buying a new TV, you tend to think that the most expensive is the better. If you under-charge, people will also think, “Ah, yeah. It’s because she’s an experiment, or she is not that good.” It’s very stupid, but that’s how a human brain in this capitalistic society works.

Mario: Yeah, it’s true. I remember, I think it was Ramit Sethi, who is this financial author and he also does a lot of different courses on freelancers and different side businesses. He, I think in one of the interviews on, I think it was a creative live or something, but he talked about I think, a really interesting point, which is like, “Clients, if they come to you and you’re, let’s say, too expensive and they can’t afford you, that’s in some sense good, because if you cost $10,000 or something and they can only pay $2,000 and you say sure, then you become that person.” There’s never a chance that all of a sudden, now maybe when they’re doing well in five years, all of a sudden, you can transition from $2,000 or something to $10,000 or something.

Pauline: Totally. Yeah. It’s something that I definitely experienced also, that I was working for an organization and then I think we only worked together again two years after. I assumed that they would understand that it’s normal that I would ask for more money. They were really like, “Why? Two years ago, you asked this amount and now it’s double. Why is that?” 

Mario: Yeah. Then how he finishes the whole thing is – Then maybe when they do get that budget, then they’re going to go to the person who is with those types of budgets from the get-go. They’re going to be like, “Oh, now we have the budget. Why would we go to Pauline who was charging us not that much?” I think that’s a good perspective. I think in that sense, even in my personal freelance business, it is the case like that. It’s almost better to be in a position where you’re like, okay, this is a – We’re like, it’s a disparity between the budget that the client has and what you’re charging. 

Mario: Then, maybe they can come back and maybe they can come back in five or 10 years. Because it’s true that not every business needs the most, I don’t know, high-quality, or most premium design, or any other creative service. Maybe they just need to work with what they have. At one point, they can afford it and they can – it does make sense for their business. Then you want to be the person they go to then, ideally. 

Pauline: Exactly. I also learned something very practical also, but let’s say, okay, we keep the same example. You’re asking for $10,000. The client comes back to you and say, “Oh, actually we only have $2,000.” You can also say, “Fine, but then I’m just going to do less work.” You proposed to keep with their budget, but instead of doing a full identity with all the biggest development ever, then you just do a basic identity and then they can do whatever they want with it, you know what I mean? You can take it the other way around. If they’re still not interested, then yeah, well, it’s not going to work. 

Mario: Yeah, exactly. Because I think that’s an important key in negotiation, because if you offer one thing and then they say other thing, and you just say yes, there’s no exchange. Because you can say, “Yes. But if you’re offering less money, I offer less service, or less value.” One thing which in my experience also helped me in negotiating, or in that exchange where you’re like, “Okay. I’m willing to do this project for half of what it is. Yeah, let’s do a smaller scope.” Then on top of that, I don’t know, you can provide me with a testimonial, or I don’t know. Or maybe, that’s fine, but you have to pay all the budget upfront, versus in two installments, or something.

Pauline: There’s all these different things you can have in your pocket to I guess, negotiate with to make the exchange. Because otherwise, if you just say yes, you’re just being a amateur who was trying a higher price and you failed it then you’re just like, “Sure.” 

Pauline: Exactly. Yeah. Those are definitely tools that everyone needs to have and it’s also a matter of protecting yourself in the short and the long-term.

Throughout our life, the work we do is a part of the long arc. As professionals, we need to manage various aspects of it. One of them is self-development, or growth, which I find to be a crucial factor in sustained career satisfaction, making it one of the central topics of this podcast. While discussing her routines, Pauline already mentioned some of the ways she’s approaching this. Here, we go more in depth and discussed how she is making sure that besides working on client assignments, she also develops as a designer and creative professional.

Pauline: Well, it’s actually super important for me to always keep in mind the bigger picture, as you say. For instance, working on your work ethic all the time, like don’t fall into stuff that you actually don’t like about your practice. I think for me, integrating things that I really care about is very important. I know environment, feminism, inclusivity, all those topics that are I strongly believe in, I think it’s very important for me that they somehow appear in my work.

Pauline: Sometimes there is not an obvious space for it, but even if it’s more insidious, I always try to bring something that really makes sense, because that’s again, really what mattered for me that what I’m doing makes sense. Yeah. That’s what I mean by also looking at the bigger picture that I feel comfortable with what I’m doing that it’s not just a rush on delivering a project to someone and making a living, but really, always be very, very awake and conscious about what I’m doing, remembering why I’m doing this and also, I don’t know, being able to explain what I’m doing even to my family, or something, or friends that are not in the field. So that in a way, it’s not just me in my bubble that is completely disconnected from reality, but that I’m using design as a tool to talk about what is really important for me. 

Mario: Yeah. I’m curious, you mentioned some of the practices you have, like taking a walk and taking time for lunch and meditation. Then also, now we talked about how you contemplate and also try to keep that very, I guess, always active. Is there anything else that you do, or even with I guess, all these things that we mentioned, how structured is that? Do you put those things in your calendar in some sense, then really try to make sure that you do them, or does it make sense?

Pauline: Yeah. I’m really trying to – There is this word. I don’t know if it really fits in this context, but re-parenting yourself is really what I’m trying to do. Then I’m going to use external tools to do so. I’m using my calendar for basically everything. I’m also, I don’t know, using my phone with reminder that I should do this and this and that. It’s not something heavy on my shoulder to have this line.

Pauline: I need structure. I love discipline in a way, which can sound paradoxical, because I mean, I was just talking about walking and being slow. I really like discipline. For me, it’s not something that doesn’t work together. Yeah, I’m really trying to really, always again, check on myself. Even if it’s also for stuff like, going to see an exhibition, or checking am I reading enough? Without putting pressure on my shoulder again, but I’m really trying to make sure that I’m not getting too lazy, or too comfortable, so I’m really trying to learn all the time. That’s something that I’m quite keen on, I would say.

Mario: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think that is very crucial. Having those types of habits, really helped me personally also early on, but then I still do a lot of these things. It’s very much, I think similar as you, I think in that sense. I’m also very much like a person who puts all these things in a calendar and keep them very close, very close daily reminders of everything. Not just, “Oh, I need to do this brochure, but also, I need to do other things.”

Pauline: I think it helps you to understand that it’s actually crucial. It’s a good word. If you don’t do that, then you can also think like, well, it’s fine. Oh, I didn’t see an exhibition for a year or something, but I it’s not vital. Actually, for me, this is how you can also lose touch with what really matter for you and fall into this routine and this life that you don’t really like at the end and you realize that you also – yeah, you don’t really encourage yourself to learn new stuff and that’s quite terrible. In a way, forcing yourself to do all these things, even if it sounds a bit too much. I think for me, it works very well.

Hey friends. You’re listening to the Creative Voyage podcast. We’re in the middle of this episode, so it’s time for a short break. If you like this podcast, I’m confident you’re going to enjoy the Creative Voyage Monthly Edit, a newsletter for which every month I ask a different creative professional to curate 10 brief recommendations of cool things to inform and inspire including books, articles, products, portfolios, podcasts, and more, and deliver it exclusively to your inbox. It’s a newsletter curated by creatives for creatives. To sign up, visit creative.voyage/newsletter. Thanks, everyone. Let’s get back to the show.

At this point in our conversation, I was curious to hear about some of Pauline’s professional challenges. Here, she discusses difficulties setting appropriate work boundaries, the trap of proposing too many options to clients and uncertainties due to the current COVID-19 situation.

Pauline: Sometimes, what can be challenging for me is the factor time. The fact that you are asked to be very, very fast and quickly available, which I can totally do. I do it all the time. Most of the time, I think I should present stuff in a more honest way and sometimes tell I’m actually busy, but I’m always like, don’t worry, and then I make space for people. It doesn’t seem like I actually did make space. It sounds like I was just doing nothing.

Pauline: I’m really, really trying to do this effort that no one really noticed probably. In a way, I feel it’s a bit problematic how people sometimes make you feel like it’s the biggest emergency ever. Sometimes, you also realize it wasn’t really the case, but they just want work to be done and I understand that. Yeah, I think the whole world will benefit from a bit of a slowdown.

Pauline: They are on a broad spectrum. I think everything is just too fast and we probably all realize a lot of things on this during quarantine. All of a sudden, everything was more slow, but it doesn’t mean that everything is collapsing either. It means that you can do things differently. Yeah, that’s something that I always found. Maybe sometimes I just feel I’m on a different speed, basically.

Mario: I feel most people are in that space, but it’s more about, yeah, I guess, market in some sense demands things fast and there’s so much supply on the market. There’s other designers. There’s always somebody else in some sense who can do it faster and cheaper, probably not better, but certainly faster and cheaper.

Mario: There is I think this underlying pressure, which we all get caught up in. Then I guess when, especially if you’re less experienced, it is hard to put those boundaries up and then hopefully over time, with maybe some track record and confidence, and just experience in general like, were you actually become better and better, then yeah, maybe we can expand that a little bit more and have some of those things. 

Mario: Then following this topic a bit further, I’m curious now in your last couple of years, what are some of the challenges you might have experienced during your career personally? Either certain setbacks, or any anecdotes you might have.

Pauline: Sometimes, I was really reflecting on some events with clients where I felt it was so unnecessary, the way this person talked to me. That’s crazy that I even just have to say that it’s not okay to talk to me like this. It’s a lot of small things, but in general, I think it all has to see with power and people using it as a tool to give direction. I think that’s, yeah, a total misconception of how to lead a project you don’t actually need to force people to anything. I think it’s actually always the worst – it gives the worst result. As a client, I think, yeah, they should always just first of all, trust the design of their employee and never try to use power as a tool.

Mario: Yeah. I think that’s a very good point. I never actually thought about it in that sense. I think I think you’re completely right that it is about power. I mean, power can be also used in a good sense. Yeah, this is very much leveraging that in a unhealthy way.

Pauline: I think it’s also sometimes, putting you in a position where you become the problem, because someone uses his power on you and make you feel like you’re the base of the problem. For me, one of the tools I discovered through the years is that you can actually dismantle this energy by just simply asking questions, for instance, so people can also face that’s some of the things they do or say, or pretend is actually not really making sense and that everything is going to be fine, so they don’t have to act in a way that is almost like a parody of themselves.

Pauline: It’s really something I learned and also probably, well, coming back to giving advice, I think asking questions is always helpful, because most of people are actually quite smart, I believe. If you start to ask questions, they will be able to understand that they are just heading the wrong direction and that is unnecessary.

Mario: Yeah. I think, going back to some earlier points, establishing the type of dynamic in a collaboration is important. You can do that through, I mean, even how you present your budget and how you negotiate, then how you start up a project and the questions you ask during those early stages of let’s say, onboarding a client. Because then, you position yourself in that sense that you are like, okay, we’re let’s say, partners, or collaborators here. It’s not you’re extracting service out of me for the best possible price, or something.

Pauline: Yeah, totally. Establishing this relation and discussion is always beneficial and I think, clients also – they understand it quite well. I think when they realize that you’re not here to gain anything also make them lose anything, but you’re really here to make something great together and you really want to collaborate, you really want to discussing. Yeah, you still also – you’re the person that no, you’re the expert and you’re here to give your expertise. 

Pauline: In that sense, there is not a – it’s not a power thing, but you are totally entitled to also say, and I think it’s important to make sure that people see that you know what you’re doing, that you don’t have to apologize for anything and that you thought about it a lot, you worked a lot on it and this is exactly what they need and they just need to trust you. 

Mario: Are there any particular challenges which you’re facing at the moment?

Pauline: Well, I would say at the moment, everything has been very slow because of corona, obviously. I realized also, well, when we were talking about financial trouble, I realized recently that this even that is completely out of your reach, there’s nothing you can do about it, it’s global, it’s a pandemic thing. Well, you can’t really fight it, but it’s putting light on the fact that your business can be quite fragile. I’m still okay. I still have assignments, so I’m very glad, still busy. 

Pauline: Yeah, I realized also that it was different than before. There was so many projects that should have been already finished for a long time and now we just don’t know, for instance – Well, I’m working on a project for a Spanish institution, but we don’t know when this institution is going to open again. It was supposed to be done and now it’s like, oh, yeah, maybe beginning of 2021. 

Mario: Is there anything in particular that you’re doing at the moment to I guess, try to be ready for the “worst”?

Pauline: Yeah. Well, I must say I’m quite lucky that I didn’t have to for instance, I’m showing quite some work on social media, but not everything and not also in a very complete way, because of course, it’s social media. You can’t be super, super precise about what you want to show. At the moment, I’m also trying to well, finally gather all of my work, showing it on the website and try to stop being a bit mysterious.

Pauline: Not that I was mysterious, but just I think before, I was just, yeah, I always had a project coming in, so I felt like, I don’t even – it’s not necessary to have a very functioning website. It was not a pretension at all. I was just like, “Ah, as long as it worked like this, it’s fine.” Now I realized, okay, now I should actually do something about that.

Mario: Let’s talk a bit more about something that we touched upon earlier. I think the topic, the broader topic, I guess it’s positioning, or developing yourself into the work that you want to be doing. I’m curious, you said that you feel you’re on the right path and in a good position of the types of work that you want to be doing, so a bit more art direction, more type design, or lettering. I’m curious, if you can talk a bit about that and about that transition of how that happened. Was it something intentional? If it was, in what way?

Pauline: Yeah. I think, well, it all came with experience, even though it’s not a 20-year experience. I think I started to really trust myself, which is a weird thing to say, like one of my personality signature is mostly doubting, which is super important. I still want to be this person. I’m super glad that I trust myself.

Pauline: When I take a project in, it’s because I know I’m going to do it right. It’s not a ego thing. It’s that, I know I take things very seriously. I know I’m going to work really hard. I know I’m going to be extremely focused and give the best, whatever it takes. Still protecting myself, but I think I developed how can I say that the machine is rolling better now, that I found my way of working. That’s one thing. 

Pauline: I’m hoping that it will also just continue, that this will still keep moving in a way, that I will still continue to evolve and to change my mind and to adjust and probably in the future, deciding – actually, I’m not really super happy with this part of my practice, so I’m going to do it less. Being able to really adjust the machine again, to change the settings, so that you always feel in-line with what you’re doing. 

Pauline: I feel with the time, I’m just more and more ready to take bigger project in, also because, I’m super comfortable with collaborating. If you take a bigger project, then you have to collaborate. You cannot do anything really great by yourself. I think it’s also one of the component of my will of having bigger projects in the future.

Mario: Yeah. Then from that very beginning to now, on a more practical level, you said you were doing much more, I guess, graphic design. Now you’re doing more of other things. How do you on a practical level, I guess, do that transition? Because I think it can be a heart, or people are looking from the outside. They can be, oh, it’s so interesting. How can you focus on these things and make a living? Because I don’t know, when people are young, they just get all kinds of very random opportunities and you just take everything, because it’s, I mean, you need to, I guess, pay rent and there’s this immediacy. I’m curious, on this practical level, how did you manage that?

Pauline: Well, in a sense it’s curating your own portfolio in a way. It’s not always easy, because as you said, there is always this immediacy that is on top of your head. For me, I think you have to find a balance and understand very clearly what is about necessity and what you actually want to – how do you want to see yourself in 10 years, or maybe 5 years? I’m trying to always try to protect and imagine what will make me feel very proud and for me the transition of – 

Pauline: I think at first, I was just not confident enough to put work that is very personal, so I would just hide behind commission and just trying to do my best, but not really putting something very personal into it. Now I’m trying to do it pretty much all the time, really putting my interest into the project, as long as it’s not overpassing the limit of the product itself. I’m trying to also make a bridge between well, properly a design practice and artistic practice, which is something I didn’t feel like doing for a long time. I think it’s very related to also French education, like the master I did. I think it was highly recommended to stay in your line, really just focus on type design and it will be better if you just focus on the technical aspect of it.

Pauline: Maybe they’re historical, but don’t try to cross the line. Don’t try to be experimental, this thing. It’s something that I really started to do more and more after graduation. Well, living in Amsterdam hasn’t helped, because I feel it’s saying I’m an artist. It’s not a taboo here. In France, it will be immediately like, “Who she thinks she is?” It has a very bad connotation in a way, or pretentious connotation. 

Pauline: I realize here, there is nothing pretentious about it. Being an artist for me, in my practice is about being able to tell stories and not even my story, but being the vector of something bigger that is not only serving the purpose of a commission.

Mario: Does anything else comes to mind? 

Pauline: Maybe it’s too general, but I feel it was always a bit of a failure when I was proposing too many options. I think it’s quite typical that the client is always going to choose the worst, or I don’t know, turn your idea around, or twist it so much that you’re actually going so much away from what you wanted to achieve. I think this happened quite a lot to me that at the end, I feel I’m not connected to the end outcome, because it was so much manipulated and yeah, you just give away a bit and then a bit more. At some point, you’re being left out from the project and you don’t even feel so much responsibility. That’s usually how you give up and that’s something that happened a lot to me. 

Mario: How do you go about the now, when you make a proposal? 

Pauline: Well, I think I’m trying to convince more that is really the best proposal. When someone is telling me like, “Oh, yeah. But I would like to see three proposals.” Usually, I’m trying to convince them that it’s not my way of working, because I usually do one proposal, to be honest. It’s definitely not what I was taught at school. At school, I always heard that you have to have three ideas with three sub-ideas behind those ideas. Well, super, super complicated.

Pauline: For me, it’s not the way I work. For me, I find the line and then I just continue this line, so there is no three line and there is no three parallel realities. It’s one thing that I think is the best and then we can improve it and we can talk about it. I don’t really believe in this multiple options.

Mario: How do you offset the possibility of okay, you find this line, it’s very, let’s say, articulated and it’s a nice concept and everything, but then client really doesn’t buy it in some sense. They’re really, maybe they even understand your thinking and everything, but they’re just like, “We don’t like this.” How do you address that, or that in a situation?

Pauline: Yeah. I think, then usually, I’m thinking like, okay, then let’s go back before all of this, because it means that there was a misunderstanding somewhere. I feel sometimes when it doesn’t work is because at the very beginning, we didn’t really understood what was the purpose. Yeah, I believe that the solution you give always makes sense if you understand well the topic of the discussion. If there is something that is not going through, then you have to you have to find another way to communicate and you have to find –

Pauline: It could be, I don’t know, that the client saw that they needed a new identity when actually, they were not really ready to give away their old one. They didn’t realize that, but you have to go back and talk about, okay, so what do you actually want? Maybe it’s not what you thought. Maybe it’s not a new logo, or something, but it’s some – I don’t know.

Mario: Yeah, exactly.

Pauline: It’s almost like going backwards and then trying to entangle what was not said.

I love typography and typographic design and I admire Pauline’s work in the field. It was a pleasure to explore the topic, her approach to it and her typeface till. We started by discussing what makes a good typeface for her. 

Pauline: I think I’m very interested in some very not paradoxical, but yeah, maybe paradoxical notion. I noticed that I like when typeface is both classical, or very rooted into a history, or culture, but there is a twist, like something quite experimental on it that’s quite subtle. Basically, if you can manage to have a typeface that is well balanced, just well-drawn basically, that is – in that sense, quite classical that you follow some rules, like basic rules, but also have a really good eye, so you can really see where things are not working, but you can also add some very weird quirky details. I think for me, that’s always what catch my attention.

Mario: How do you approach your own typefaces which you develop? 

Pauline: I realized that I always thought like, “Oh, yeah. I’m not so analog,” but actually, I think pretty much every time I start a typeface, or just the lettering, I always start by drawing. I need a pen, or even sometimes, I do calligraphy if it’s necessary. In that sense I always start in a classical way. I’m just first of all, trying to find a DNA of the font I want to develop. Defining the storytelling. 

Pauline: Usually in between, I’m also writing a lot. I’m writing a story behind it. I’m writing almost the trailer of the typeface. It’s something I usually do. It was not really a conscious thing, but I realized I’m doing it quite a lot. I guess, that’s one of my process.

Mario: What are the current typefaces you either have, or are being developed? Can you talk a bit about that? 

Pauline: Yeah. There is a one, very old friend of mine called Till. It’s the typeface I started to develop a very long time and it had even different names and different shapes. Then, I think I came to a point where I think it was also the point where I started to feel comfortable with my practice, then I decided to start to sell it. It was I think, maybe two years ago maybe. I don’t know.

Pauline: Now I’m really trying to develop it into something that is not too classical. I didn’t really wanted to have just the medium version and then the bold version and the italic. I’m trying to expand the storytelling. I was talking about the narrative of the typeface. I’m trying to expand it to something that is quite particular. For instance, for till, I’m now developing a counter-intuitive version of Till, because Till is very, very sharp and thin. I’m doing a Till melted, which is the melted version of it, so there is a serif that are round-ish, that could be a little bit in the Courier typeface.

Pauline: I see it as a counter-intuitive version of it. Also, it’s melting. Literally, there is letter that I’ll just blending with each other, so I’m tending to do more and more, so ligatures like this. Then I’m working on the monospace of Till, which is also quite counterintuitive. I’m trying to do something that is really fun for me and challenging and that I can talk about almost as a real story and not just a typeface, that I’m super happy when people use it. Of course, it’s super important. Before anything, I’m really interested in creating the narrative of it.

Mario: How do you see yourself now, but also going forward in this, let’s say, the business of typography? You said Till has been for sale for a few years. In general, can you give a little bit of, I guess, an insight in how that works? Let’s say somebody is interested in type design and they’re starting up and they’re working on their first typeface, or having a couple of typefaces in development, how does that side of the practice looks?

Pauline: Yeah. I used to do it almost like, I don’t know, in between stuff, but not really taking the time for it. I would say and I would advise also to consciously making space for it, because you’re going to need time. You can’t really take shortcuts for it. Yeah, it’s going to take forever. It’s years of work, most of the time.

Pauline: That’s okay. I think it’s just, you have to accept that it’s going to be a long stretch and that’s something I really like as well. I’m also developing other type faces, but I don’t even talk about it, because I know it’s going to take forever. If you start to talk too much about it, then people expect you to release it. I know it just takes forever. 

Pauline: I would strongly advise to structure your practice, make some time for it, show it to people around you, take some break from some of the typefaces sometimes, so you can reflect better on what you did. It’s also okay to change your mind, give away an idea that doesn’t fit anymore with what you wanted to do. It’s quite flexible and that’s also the fun part of doing type design in a well, semi-professional way, I would say. Because if you work on a type form, then of course, it’s different, you really have to keep up with the deadlines. When I have an actual deadline, or commission on typefaces, then it’s totally different. Then I really have to completely focus. Yeah, if you have the luxury to have fun with your typeface, yeah, you should do it, but do it seriously, serious fun.

Mario: Then from a financial perspective, is making typefaces a business? I mean, I know it is, but I’m curious, what’s from your perspective.

Pauline: Yeah. I think it’s important to make sure that people actually buy your typeface. Unless, you’re having a project, like open source typefaces, which is a different topic. If you sell your typeface, you have to also be aware of how other people do it, what are the normal prices. If you put the price too low, then it’s also devaluating the whole market. It’s bad for the whole industry, basically, and it’s the case. There is a lot, there are small type forming that sell that type is for very cheap prices, which could be a – I mean, yeah, it could be seen as a good thing, but at the end, I think it’s also damaging quite a lot to field.

Pauline: It’s a balance to find. Yeah, it depends on also obviously where you’re living. If you’re living in the wealthiest country in the world, then you have to also make your living according to how expensive life is in your country. You can’t sell your typeface for 10 euro, obviously. Yeah, it depends on a lot of factors. I think in general, it’s important to understand that it’s an industry and that we have altogether the responsibility to maintain and to keep it sustainable. Yeah, that’s what I was looking for to keep it sustainable.

Mario: Yeah. You work both as a graphic designer as well. Of course, you work on your typefaces and have a education in that. I’m curious, what would be a couple of pieces of advice for graphic designers, but maybe even other creatives who just work on a simple document, or it can be also professional younger graphic designers who work on stuff, but they don’t have that much typographic experience. What would you advise to them, how to improve their typography, so not in making typography, but using typography? What are some of those mistakes, I guess, which you see as a professional that are low-hanging fruit, which can be fixed?

Pauline: Yeah. I think, well, I’m not sure it’s going to be enough as an answer, but obviously, observing a lot is important. I think it’s all about educating your eyes. It’s a vague thing. I remember also when my teacher told me, “Oh, yeah. You have to educate your eyes.” I’m like, “Yeah, okay. Well, thank you. How?” 

Pauline: Yeah, you have to look at things on the critical way to understand why it works and why it doesn’t work for you, also for yourself. It’s not only actual fixed knowledge, but it’s also, understand what you like, what you think works or not. In a sense, it’s also contemplation, but active contemplation. 

Mario: Then on a more practical level with let’s say, laying out type, what are some of those – is there anything that you see and you’re in general, if you see maybe other people do, or less experience designers do where you’re like, this is just like, please don’t do this and please don’t do that.

Pauline: Yeah. I think, I can be quite bothered with typography, micro-typography rules that are not respected. This is something that you have to learn. There is plenty of resources. I learned on the French books that was written to explain all the rules of micro-typography. I think it helps a lot, because it’s already a problem that you don’t have to deal with. When you don’t know all those rules, I don’t know at the moment. I think there is books in English about rules in typography, but I didn’t study those one.

Pauline: Definitely find resources like this and try to also think about the use of what you’re doing. If you’re designing a book and you want to have super tight margin, good, but you also have to realize that people are going to put their hands on it and then it’s going to be maybe not so useful to have a super, super small margin, or all these things that are really related to the actual use of an object, basically. Same as also a website. You have to think about also the possibility that maybe if you have super good eyesight, but someone doesn’t have one, well then, you have to consider that, so you can’t have super small type. It’s a plenty of stuff that actually just are common sense in a way that you have to look at.

Art direction can be a vague and confusing term. Around more than half of my professional work these days is dedicated to our direction, but just half a decade ago as a senior graphic designer, I wasn’t really sure what it actually meant and entailed. As defined by Oxford Languages, the work of an art director is in overseeing the artistic aspects of a film, publication or other media production. It’s a broad discipline and as I discussed with Charlotte Heal during episode 2 of the podcast, the role can entail anything from guiding the “bigger picture,” to a more hands-on job, tightly intertwined with production. I’ve used this opportunity to ask Pauline for her thoughts on our direction and how she’s integrating that service into her projects.

Pauline: For me, it’s basically being able to create the narrative for your clients, so that for instance, your client is going to come to you, because they know that they are lacking on something, or yeah, something is not working for them, but maybe they think – they probably think that they know exactly what they need. You’re going to have to give a direction, so that’s well, technically, it’s in the world art direction and it’s really being able to give yourself the direction to someone, it also means for me that you’re going to be able to gather the proper group of people that you need for it.

Pauline: It depends on the context, but it can be that you are going to call collaborators that are the best at I don’t know, photography, or filmmaking, or coding, or something. You’re going to organize all of this and you’re going to basically, put together all the ingredients that are going to be necessary to make the product nice. That’s how I see it.

Mario: Yeah, it’s a really good explanation. From that client perspective, do just clients straight up come to you and ask for that? Meaning like, clients have an understanding of what our direction is and they’re asking you to do it. Or is it more something that you have to explain and then package up as a service? 

Pauline: Yeah. Well, in my experience, it’s always been that you have to explain and come with a plan that they don’t even expect you to come with. Yeah, that’s just my experience. It’s not in general or anything. In my experience, it’s something that is not always expected, basically. It’s going to be the moment where you actually are going to show your client that you have this expertise that is actually broader than what they thought. 

Pauline: They’re going to be happy with it, but they just don’t know it yet. You’re also going to take responsibility for this whole part of organizing, explaining them. Yeah, you’re going to take basically, more responsibility than they thought you wouldn’t take.

We’ve come to the last topic of discuss with Pauline. As with other guests, I’ve asked her to highlight three pieces of advice based on what she learned so far on her professional journey. Here’s what Pauline shared with me. 

Pauline: Well, I’m going to start with something that I already mentioned, but seriously changed my life is the practice of meditation, which is I think something that we should be more open about, because for a lot of people, I think it’s still a bit obscure, but it’s actually a wonderful tool. It’s super simple. It’s going to save a lot of anxiety. It’s going to help you to understand a lot of things about yourself.

Pauline: On a very practical level for me, it’s magical when I’m being stressed about a project, I just do that and then it’s immediately better. It requires quite a lot of consistency. You have to do it often. It’s not something that you can only do in a SOS moment, but I totally recommend it to everyone that is open to that. That’s one. 

Mario: Can I ask a sub-question? Can you give a bit of insight into your meditation practice, like what type is it? How long do you do it and how long have you been doing it? Do you use certain tools, like apps or other things? 

Pauline: I’m doing it I think, for probably three years now, pretty much every day. If I don’t do it, I really feel the difference also. I don’t do it very, very long. I think for me, 20 minutes it’s enough per day, which could be already a lot for most of people. When you look at what you can gain for it, it’s actually not so much.

Pauline: Most of the time, using an app, that’s how at least how I started. This app is called Pause, but I think it’s just French. There is a lot of different one. I used to use Headspace. Back then, it was only in English and I don’t know for me, it was just easier to do it in French, so I started to use a French app. What I learned through those apps is especially the breathing techniques, all the respiration exercise was something really new. I never realized that I actually didn’t really know how to breathe properly, so that was a big thing.

Pauline: Now I don’t even do it – I don’t even use it that much, like not every day. I can also do it myself, because I know some exercises that work for me. The only thing I need is to be in a quite calm environment. I know that some people also do it in the metro, or whatever. I can’t really do that. That’s basically my practice of meditation. 

Mario: It’s basically a form of a mindfulness practice, right?

Pauline: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Body scan, mindfulness.

Mario: The second thing?

Pauline: Second thing. I think, well, this is really in a level of creating your own value and being responsible for your community. It’s about taking responsibility to create and keeping a safe space for everyone around you. Yeah, like a inclusive and a healthy work environment basically, is something that is really fundamental and that you can sometimes, I don’t know, don’t think about just because you’re in the urgency of life, whatever deadline, blah, blah. I think it’s really, really important that everyone takes responsibility, that we all treat each other very good.

Pauline: I mean, sounds very naïve, because it’s just simple principle, but I think it’s so important. Yeah, and not really encourage, or not always easy for everyone to do it on a daily basis. That’s for me very important.

Pauline: I would say, it’s also because for me it’s an important advice, because you’re not going to do it hopefully, for five years of your life. Potentially, you’re going to do this for your whole life. Maybe not, but it’s a long stretch again. You have to take care of people around you, but also yourself. You have to create space where you make sure that yeah, there is inclusivity, diversity, of course, that is safe for everyone. If you don’t do it consciously, then we just keep staying in this stage of a non-diverse and very, very dangerous environment sometimes for individuals.

Mario: Great. Is there anything else?

Pauline: Yeah, there is one more thing, but it’s also something that we mentioned before. I think it’s very important to keep on reflecting on your practice and your whole life, basically, that you never think like, “Oh, okay. This is me. This is what I’m doing. This is who I am.” I think it’s very important to confront your ideas to be able to discuss your practice and ideas with other people to change your mind, to learn being open. Yeah, to change within yourself and basically, it’s all about questioning, sharing, discussing, learning and then repeating. 

Hey, everyone. That’s it for this episode. I hope you find it useful. If you like this podcast, tell a friend. I want to thank Pauline for coming onto the show. I find her work and typefaces contemporary, beautiful and inspiring. I’m grateful for all the insights she shared. Links to Pauline’s work and some other things mentioned during the conversation can be found in the show notes at creative.voyage/podcast.

Also, you can follow @creative.voyage on Instagram, where besides podcast updates and inspiration, we premiered “One Lesson Learned”, a new feature in which inspiring creatives shared a recent project and an actionable lesson they discovered while creating it.

If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe and until next time my friends, take care.